Josh Shapiro and Michael Bennet both rose to prominence during the Obama era and have long been considered part of the Democratic Party’s moderate wing. So what does it say that neither thinks Democrats can simply return to the pre-Trump status quo?

In this premium bonus episode of Master Plan: The Kingmakers , we’re sharing David Sirota’s full interviews with Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro and Colorado Sen. Michael Bennet about why it’s time for Democrats to “get shit done” and what should come next for the presidency.

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This is the third in a series of extended interviews from Episode 8: The Inheritance that we’re releasing exclusively for our premium members.

- Watch and listen to our interviews with Reps. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) and Ro Khanna (D-Calif.).
- Watch and listen to our interview with Sen. Chris Van Hollen (D-MD).

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TRANSCRIPT

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[00:00:00] Jared Jacang Maher: Hi, it's Jared from Master Plan. In this bonus episode, we have two more full interviews that we did for Episode 8 of The Kingmakers: The Inheritance.

First up is Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro. Shapiro has been governor since 2023, and before that he was Pennsylvania's attorney general for about six years, during which he filed many court challenges to the first Trump administration. So he's seen executive power from a couple different angles, and we wanted to know from him what he thinks the next Democratic president should do with all that presidential power.

During a telephone interview, David talked with Governor Shapiro about many things, including where executive power can be useful, where it can become abusive, what he's learned from wielding executive power himself as a governor. They also get into the courts, the president's pardon power, federal spending, and whether the next Democratic president should embrace the unitary executive theory.

So here's David Sirota speaking with Governor Josh Shapiro.

[00:01:00] David Sirota: Okay, so first question that we were asking everybody in this series is, is the imperial presidency here to stay? And if so, what do we mean by the imperial presidency?

[00:01:13] Josh Shapiro: Well, look, I think what you're really asking is about the expanded use of executive power by this president and even before him by other presidents. I think presidents have accumulated power over the last several decades, in part because of a lack of productivity of Congress, and so it has put a lot more on the agencies.

But what we have seen with this president is a real abuse of power. And so when you think about the use of power by an executive, I think we need to distinguish between utilizing their executive authority for speed, right? To get shit done more quickly for the American people, or using this executive power for purposes of abuse.

I think with Donald Trump, we've seen a lot more abuse, whether it's using executive power for tariffs or using the executive power to undermine our elections or using executive power to undermine the privacy of Americans or most notably, to profit off of the presidency. And so I think we obviously need to find our way back to some balance where the Congress of the United States actually does its job to pass bills and make clear, you know, what laws will be and reclaim some of that authority.

But I think we also have to acknowledge that while Donald Trump is not the first president to expand the use of executive authority, he's done it in a horribly abusive manner.

[00:02:56] David Sirota: There's been an idea that the courts would check, ex- executive abuses o- of power. But a lot of the Supreme Court's recent rulings seem to do the opposite. They validate the executive agen– the executive branch's use of power. I think the question is, as somebody who was sued when you were attorney general, sued Donald Trump's administration, are courts still an effective check on executive power?

[00:03:22] Josh Shapiro: Less so today after a term and a half of Donald Trump than they were at the beginning of the first Trump administration.

And look, I mean, in many ways, David, this is exactly what the founders worried about 250 years ago when they declared our independence from a king and then returned to your old home city of Philadelphia to, about a decade later, to establish the guardrails of our democracy, and pass a constitution.

The founders were so worried about the accumulation of power within the executive that we would somehow be returned to tyranny, and to be ruled by a tyrant, that they went through great pains to set up three separate branches of government that they believed would have equal authority to be able to check one another.

Madison wrote extensively about his fear of an executive accumulating too much power in the Federalist Papers.

But today, we see ourselves in a situation where we not only have a president that is pushing the boundaries of executive authority and using them for abusive purposes, but we also have a court system that has been handpicked by him that's allowing him to get away with it.

And so I think the founders would be concerned not just about the accumulation of power within the hands of an executive, but the failure of the courts to do, to meet their constitutional obligation. I think what's clear is that the guardrails established by our founders aren't working right now.

They're not protecting the average American from the chaos, cruelty, and the corruption that we see today.

The Congress isn't serving as a check, and the courts have not only ruled in favor of this president, they've literally given him absolute immunity for the crimes he commits during his time as president.

And so my hope is that whatever follows Donald Trump in both the Congress and in the White House, is that we're able to pass some serious anti-corruption laws and we're able to harken back to the fears of our founders and the example that Trump set and make some real changes, to our laws in this country to protect ourselves against this type of executive in the future.

[00:05:49] David Sirota: Okay, so let's imagine it's 2029. Either you are president or there is a Democratic president. You're a governor who is dealing with a split legislature where the Republicans have some control o- of the legislature. So you've been dealing with this question of how much to go through a partially hostile legislature versus how much to use executive authority, i- as governor of Pennsylvania.

So now, like, broaden it out nationally. Looking at all the power that Trump has, has concentrated in the White House, let's imagine you or the next Democratic president is looking at a split or narrowly divided Congress. What are some of the things you think that Democratic president should use of the power that Trump has concentrated in the White House, and what are other powers that perhaps that president shouldn't use, i- in, in that situation?

[00:06:48] Josh Shapiro: Sure. Look, I think it is important that when Democrats are back in power, that the people leading us move quickly, move swiftly to solve problems, don't sort of pine away for some, you know, nostalgia about what things used to be like, but instead work aggressively to solve problems. In some cases, that can be done responsibly through executive authority, but I think we need a president who's gonna focus on trying to find ways to work with the Congress, force their hand, and force them to come together around some really concrete reforms that are gonna help protect our nation as we go forward and put us in a better position to get stuff done.

I mean, look, I, I think what is clear from Trump's time in office is that

We can't just rely on the inherent goodness of individuals to restrain an executive, something that the, again, the founders talked a lot about.

And to that end, I think the next Congress, the next president needs to do some serious reform. I think the Supreme Court of the United States needs some real reform. I think we need a new Voting Rights Act. I think we need an anti-gerrymandering law. I think we need a ban on insider trading, both in the Congress, and in the executive branch. I think we need to find ways to rein in the president's pardon power.

I mean, to think that the first thing this president did, after, you know, getting the pen back in his hand, so to speak, was to pardon the people who assaulted cops on January 6th, pardon people that tried to stop the peaceful transfer of power. I have pardon power as governor. I agonize over every case.

This president I think has shown that there are no guardrails on the pardon power. There needs to be more. I think there needs to be very clear rules of the road within the Justice Department so you can't just simply use the DOJ to target specific individuals or corporations just based on the views of a president.

I think we also need to take another look ... This is not very sexy, David, but it's something I've had to grapple with, but the power to refuse to spend funding that has been appropriated by Congress. I mean, Donald Trump tried to rip away billions and billions of dollars from Pennsylvania taxpayers that had been appropriated to us.

I had to sue him in order to get that money back. I think we need reform in that space. I think we need, you know, some clear laws as it relates to the tariff power of a president. I think we need clearer rules on how national guards are deployed in this country. I think we need to strengthen the laws of posse comitatus.

So those are just a few examples, David, just off the top of my head, of areas where I think we're gonna need to really be focused on serious reform when Democrats are back in power

[00:09:50] David Sirota: What about the flip side here? the idea ... Like, let's take the idea of the unitary executive theory. There's a world in which the – a Democrat gets elected president and says, "Okay, the Republicans have been citing this unitary executive theory to do everything that they want regardless of the laws that Congress passes.

Let's use the unitary executive theory to do many of the things that we've promised to do, then whether it comes to, to, labor rights, union rights, wages, et cetera, et cetera." I mean, would you advise the next Democratic president to use the unitary executive theory for the Democratic agenda?

[00:10:26] Josh Shapiro: Well, look, I mean, I used my executive authority as governor to do good for people, to protect labor interests, to put PLAs on different projects as an example. I just wrote a sweeping executive order on data center development, the strictest guardrails in the entire country. and I used my inherent authority as an executive in a legal manner and in a manner that I think allows me to be most responsive to the people of Pennsylvania.

Look, I'm in favor of using some of the expanded powers that could make government more responsive to the people and cut red tape. the kind of red tape that makes it hard to get shit done in our government. The kind of red tape that makes it harder to improve people's lives.

I mean, that's the way I've used my executive authority as governor and that is what I think would be needed by the next Democratic president.

None of that, though, is a substitute for finding ways to work with the Congress of the United States to pass sweeping legal changes, to fix our healthcare system, to make sure that the union way of life is protected, to make sure that we've got fairness in our tax code. None of that is gonna be done via executive order. That's gotta be done through a negotiated process with the Congress of the United States.

[00:11:53] David Sirota: One last question. Looking at the way Trump has behaved and his use of executive authority, do you think it... Looking now at that, now looking in the past to the way Democrats have seemed less willing in the past to use executive authority in the way he has, do you think moving forward that the Democratic electorate, we will more expect the next Democratic president to use that executive power in a more aggressive and forceful way than perhaps there was the expectation in the past?

[00:12:32] Josh Shapiro: I don't think the next Democratic president should try to emulate anything Donald Trump has done when it comes to the abuses of executive power. I also don't think the next Democratic president should simply return to the way business was done in the past. I do think we need to chart a new course. We need to be reform-minded, and we need to push the envelope on speed to ensure that things happen more quickly and people have faith that government can actually solve problems.

I really think that many of the lessons we will learn from this time of Trump will be the negative lessons, sort of what not to do, but I would caution any Democratic leader to just simply, i- imagining a world that existed before Trump and trying to work our way back to that. That is not the answer.

[00:13:26] David Sirota: Governor Josh Shapiro, Thanks for your time today.

[00:13:28] Josh Shapiro: Great to be with you. Go Birds.

[00:13:30] Jared Jacang Maher: That was Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro. Next up, we have Colorado Senator Michael Bennett.

Bennett has been a senator since 2009. He's considered a moderate Democrat and viewed as a pragmatist, and over the years, he's tried to use the bipartisan route to get big things done on issues like campaign finance reform and infrastructure. But in this conversation, you can really hear his frustration with how broken that process has become.

Congress is stuck, gets very little done, and Bennett argues that the checks and balances of government can't just become another excuse for inaction. David sat down with Bennett over lunch at Zaydi's Deli here in Denver. They talked about what a future president could actually do on things like healthcare and drug prices, why Bennett thinks that voters are running out of patience with government inaction, and why he thinks change is needed at the Supreme Court.

Here's David Sirota with Senator Michael Bennett.

[00:14:27] David Sirota: So we're doing this project Master Plan, which is about, this season is about presidential power, and Trump's... Well, not just Trump's, but sort of over the last many decades, more power going into the executive branch.

And the end of the season is about how Democrats should think about presidential power if they get the presidency back, what powers to use that Trump has grabbed, what powers to give back. So I just ask you, like, to start out, how do y- how would you tell, if there's a Democratic president, how, what would you tell them to use of the powers that Trump has amassed in- inside the White House?

Like, use the power? Give it back? Relinquish it? Like, how, how should they be thinking?

[00:15:14] Michael Bennett: It is, first of all, I think in the hail of what Trump has done, it's sometimes easy to lose sight of just how extraordinary his grab of presidential power has been. There's not a day that he's not driving the agenda by using his authorities as expansively as possible.

That doesn't make it right, but that is what he's doing, and I think the American people have come to expect that whoever is in that office is gonna actually deliver for them, not just talk about that. And that piece of it is, I, I think, something very important that Dem- a Democratic president has to hold onto from day one, that da- from day one, the expectation of the American people is gonna be that the President is gonna be delivering to make their lives better.

Not giving speeches about stuff, not talking about legislation they're gonna pass, but actually changing the way the government operates so that it makes their lives better.

[00:16:10] David Sirota: Do you think in the past that Democratic presidents have relied on this idea that there's always a reason to not go all the way? I mean, I feel like a lot of people, they-- We've gotten used to hearing, "Oh, this-- I can't do anything. There's the filibuster. I can't do anything. There's the Senate parliamentarian.

I can't do anything because that would violate, like, norms and traditions. I can't do anything because, because I, I can't get legislation through. I can't do it by executive order." Like, how much of what hasn't happened in the past is because Democrats haven't been willing to use power in the way Trump has been willing to use power?

Not to, not to tout Trump, but

[00:16:50] Michael Bennett: Right. I think it's Democrats and Republicans. The system is built to, to, to, to not take action. I mean, and, you know, Citizens United has made that fundamentally worse because it's created a corruption of inaction. You know, C- Citizens United, like, the Supreme Court imagined there was a world where you give me $5,000 and I go write a bill for you, and, and that's a corruption of action, quid pro quo corruption.

That's not the problem we face. We face a problem of inaction. And, this filibuster's a perfect example. That's an example where both parties say, "I'm fighting for this, I'm fighting for this, I'm fighting for this," but they couldn't d- I couldn't deliver because I couldn't get the votes. You know, so the, McConnell and Schumer both have perfected the practice of saying they're gonna get something done, promising they're getting something done, and then blaming the other side for not getting it done.

I think Trump, and I, I'm not giving, you know, I'm not giving him credit. Right. I'm saying he has ... He saw that the American people saw that in s- in a sense, as corruption, a, a corruption of inaction, and part of what he's done is broken that, and he's taken the excuses away in some ways. And I think that those days of blaming the process, blaming the institutions, saying there's a right way and a wrong way, which, by the way, there is.

There is a right way and a wrong way, and Trump has done it, in many ways, the wrong way. That can't be an excuse for not acting. So you look at the scope of the presidential powers when it comes to something like healthcare. I would say to a new president, that should be your number one thing.

[00:18:32] David Sirota: So what, what can they do?

[00:18:33] Michael Bennett: What are you gonna do with the powers of HHS? The powers of Medicare, the powers of Medicaid, to create the flexibility that America needs to be able to experiment with alternatives to private health insurance, to be able to create true public options, to be able to move in the direction of universal healthcare even if we haven't passed it nationally?

What can you do to create flexibility for states and local communities or even businesses like this one? You know, the last thing these guys wanna do is pay for private insurance for their employees. What do they do to come together, and could a president help them do that? That is one place where I think there could be a really rich effort.

On drug prices, you know, what can the president do, not just to talk about it, not just to go to the well. This is a place where Trump has probably really overpromised and under-delivered. What could a Democratic president do to actually deliver on, on drugs?

[00:19:29] David Sirota: Well, what ... I would, I would ask you that, that question.

Let's say there's a Democratic president, narrow majority of Democrats, or even a Republican Senate or Republican Congress. What comes to your mind as something a Democratic president could do regardless of Congress?

I mean, I- haven't- I,

[00:19:46] Michael Bennett: I would say to create as much, much flexibility as you could with the delivery of Medicaid and Medicare in this country to try to deliver an alternative system of healthcare in America.

And, you know, that will be challenged. There'll be legal challenges to that, and those legal challenges are appropriate. W- we don't believe the court shouldn't have something to say, unlike Trump. But that can't be an excuse for not acting, and the fact that Congress is not acting can't be an excuse for not acting.

Because then you just get back in the position that you're in with Joe Biden, let's say, and where you're saying, "I just can't get this done because it's too hard to get it through Congress."

[00:20:25] David Sirota: I mean, I think of something on this, It's kinda wonky, but the whole debate over march-in rights.

You know, pharmaceutical march-in rights, where the government has developed the drug at taxpayer expense, and then the pharmaceutical companies are turning around and charging us the highest prices in the world- for the drug. And the executive branch has the power to say, "No. Uh, we developed that drug. You're gonna offer it at a fair and reasonable price, or we'll make it ... We'll, we'll, we'll produce a generic version." Now, without getting into the details of that, some might hear that and say, "Well, that's, that's authoritarian.

You're gonna literally..." They're called march-in rights. You're gonna march in and you're gonna do, you're gonna do this thing. And I feel like Democrats haven't been comfortable with that kind–

[00:21:11] Michael Bennett: We never have. I, I think we never have. But I think the American people are out of patience with the inaction because their lives have become so difficult.

You know, this is a world where... I was with some kids yesterday in a high sch- gra- AP Government kids in Aurora, you know? And the first question is, "Why is housing so expensive?" The second question is, "Why do... My brother is 30 years old, and he's still paying back his college loans?" I said to her, the woman who said that, I said, "I have 60-year-old people who come to my office saying they're still paying off their college loans."

So there is an impatience, and that impatience in the Trump era has taken the form not just of his, uh, unitary action, but also of chaos, of disruption, of ignoring the checks and balances that are important to a democracy, of ignoring the rule of law that's important to democracy. That– those things are important to me.

I don't know if they are for you. They are important to me, and the f- our democratic values are very, very important to me, small D democratic values. They are being undermined by Trump every single day. But that system of checks and balances cannot be treated as it has historically, which is an excuse for not getting anything done. We're gonna have to act consistent with those values, but we're gonna have to drive an agenda from day one. I mean, the president is gonna have... our president is gonna have to say, "This is what I'm doing in the first year. This is what I'm doing in the first six months." And if Congress stands in their way or doesn't get stuff done, you know, he ha- he or she has to make the case that they need to get back to work.

[00:22:52] David Sirota: What about the-- Let's talk a little bit about the courts for a second because you mentioned there would be legal challenges, right? A Democratic president does this or does that with executive action. The Repub- the Republicans go into court to try to stop it. We know that the stats tell us that, for instance, the Supreme Court On issues of presidential power are supporting Republicans' use of presidential power, and then much less supportive of Democrats' use of executive power.

So gaming all of that out, what to do about the courts? What to do about the Supreme Court?

[00:23:26] Michael Bennett: I mean, I would put term limits on the Supreme Court, and I think that is a reform that would be broadly supported by the American people. It's a shambles, man. It's a shambles. I mean, it used to be that we had a process in place for, there was the constitutional process to approve Supreme Court justices.

There was the p- you know, the constitutional prerogative of the Senate. That has been reduced to a partisan exercise just like everything else. I'm sorry for that, 'cause I think that it used to be the idea was if you got 100 votes, even if you were coming from the other party, that sort of reasserted the independence of the judiciary from our partisan politics.

Those days are over, at least for the moment. I think the way to fix that problem would be by, by, by, by putting term limits in. By the way, that's a great illustration of a const- That's not a constitutional reform. You don't need a constitutional reform to do that. That is a, that is an idea that is on the scale of the ideas that the last progressive era, 100 years ago, pursued.

Like, that is of that s- size. Making sure women have the right to vote, making sure Supreme Court justices, you know, are t- term limited.

[00:24:42] David Sirota: Let's talk a little bit about-

[00:24:43] Michael Bennett: By the way, can I say one other thing?

[00:24:44] David Sirota: Yeah, please.

[00:24:44] Michael Bennett: 'Cause I know the first season of this, the whole thing was about the economics – you know, it started with the Lewis Powell stuff and all that.

I mean, that is what the origins of all of this is, and it isn't surprising that 50 years later, you know, you have the Roberts Court and the courts in general, uh, reinforcing those economic decisions that 50 years ago were... That, I mean, that was the ambition, and it came, in its first incarnation, it came from the legal community, and people like Robert Bork and those guys- Yeah and their bizarre view of, of originalism and of, of antitrust law. That's the stuff we're now dealing with.

[00:25:30] Jared Jacang Maher: That was Colorado Senator Michael Bennett speaking with David Sirota. And before that, you heard Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro. Both of these interviews were part of Episode 8 of The Kingmakers: The Inheritance, where we ask Democratic leaders what they should do about presidential power after Trump.

So if you haven't heard that episode, go and check that out right now, and we'll have more of these interviews in full for premium members in the coming weeks. Thanks again for being a supporter of Masterplan and The Lever.